PD giving Tasers to officers

" So, when we call Taser, will they tell us all about the tons of deaths caused by these devices and tell just how well they are doing paying out lawsuits?

Somehow we just don't feel safer with these devices in our city. "

" Shocking:

Maybe you should check into more research, and "walk a mile in an officer's shoes" on your end before you make undetailed accusations about Tasers causing deaths. The same accusations from the media frenzy rat race happened 20 plus years ago when sworn officers began carrying OC (oleoresin capsicum) spray as a force option, as well as bean bag rounds from a less lethal shotgun.

While I am not here to argue the fact that deaths have occurred after the deployment of a taser device. However, the deaths that have occurred have been on suspects that were in an excited delerium caused by the introduction of illegal drugs (ie. cocaine, methamphetamine, pcp, etc.) into their systems. It is a scientifcally researched phenomenon that has been coined "cocaine psychosis". The last two years there have been implementations of studies done on how to combat this effect without endangering the life of a subject in this condition. That is why training is such a paramount issue when an officer is given the option of using a taser in a use of force situation. It is a force option that is safer for not only the officer, but the suspect as well.

In light of that earlier statement "walk a mile in an officer's shoes" put yourself in the position of an officer having to diffuse the situation of a habitual violent recidivst. A suspect that has been in and out of prison most of his life for violent crimes has one thing on his mind if law enforcement is called. HE IS NOT GOING BACK TO PRISON.... That being said that person has NOTHING TO LOSE even if it is putting an officer in the hospital or killing him, then so be it. In the blink of an eye a calm situation can become completly opposite where the officer is fighting for his life and backup may be around the corner but what about the time lapse of backup responding?? Statistically speaking a law enforcement officer in the US is killed every 56 seconds. Are you going to be the one knocking on that officer's door to tell his family that he is not coming home???? Are you going to be the one handing the American Flag to that officer's next of kin????? Probably not, because that officer just gave his life during a home invasion, and the suspect responsible for taking his life was stopped with the ultimate sacrifice... Its okay though because YOUR HOME was the next to be invaded and your families safety put in danger, and possibly killed, but your safe., I bet you didnt know that did you??? You never will because it is never mentioned.... You may have at sometime been the target of a home invasion that never happened, because that person was stopped before it happened...Think about that....It doesnt matter though an officer with a family waiting for him at home is dead, because a bureaucratic system does not allow officers to use deadly force, on an unarmed determined recidivist criminal. YES officers have been killed by determined offenders using only their bare hands!!!! Taser has leveled the playing field by giving that option before resorting to deadly force.

It was the media, along with ACLU and frivilous law suits toward officers that basically caused the inception of the taser, because it gave another option that is "less than lethal" instead of having to resort straight to deadly force. "

" So, before anyone assumes that there have been "tons of deaths caused by these devices" they should actually do their research before passing judgement on a tool that can help protect our law enforcement officers. If one does their research they may actually "feel safer with these devices in our city". I know I do. "

" GIVE A COP AN INCH" AND THEY WILL TAKE A MILE!

OUR POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE STARTING TO LOOK A LOT LIKE THE MEXICAN POLICE FORCE THESE DAYS!

ANY-THING GOES! "

" errr..... Taser bad, gun good?

This must be the smart party forum!

Get some perspective! "

" JM wrote: "Statistically speaking a law enforcement officer in the US is killed every 56 seconds".

Do the math numbskull, that equates to over 526 thousand officers dying per year out of the roughly 1 million in the U.S.

According to the Federal Government the average is 55 out of 1 million per year by felony. (See FBI website)

Everything you wrote is B.S unthinking propaganda. and provably so. "

" I'd rather "give a cop an inch" than some drugged up criminal. "

" SO according to "JM" math over 50% of the entire U.S. police force is killed every year.

The real number is 50 to 60 out of 1 million per year by felony. "

" Hey Shocked (posted 11-17-08), I'd appreciate it if you did your research before using the same name as me. I'd prefer not to be mixed up with a numbskull like you. Thanks. "

" Shocked,

I admit that I am not a mathmatical genious that you notably claim to be. Nor am I arguing the fact about the "56 second" proclamation. That is my fault writing that and I will admit that.

However, the audacity of claiming what I wrote being propoganda wow, that caught me off guard. Which clearly shows that you are missing the big picture. I wrote what I did to paint a picture of what is only a small portion of what officers have to go through in making a just decision based on totality of circumstances. Most citizens on a daily basis only see law enforcement officers either when they are being stopped, driving by, or going to calls. The most negative part of what a citizen observes is the negative publicity gained when an officer has to resort to taking a life to protect themselves and others. Now that is not to mention negative publicity when some officers gain attention from mass media for abusing their power, or doing things that are literally illegal.

Now, probably what I should have mentioned in the earlier writing that most people do not know is called a force continuum. When an officer is called there is an order of events that have to take place for an officer to gain compliance from an offender. This continuum goes in order 1. Officer presence 2. Verbal tactics 3. Empty hand control i.e verbal commands with control holds, pressure points, etc. 4. Impact weapon i.e baton, oc spray, TASER or Electronic Control Devices, 5. Less lethal options ie. Taser once again, Bean bag rounds 6. DEADLY FORCE

A Taser dramatically decreases that either officer or suspect is injured. Officers are trained to use the continuum based on circumstance they are given by a resisting or combative suspect. Using multiple strikes from a baton on a suspect numbed by the effects of alcohol or drugs opens up the door for excessive force issues. When a taser is deployed there is absolutely no controlling the effect. Total loss of motor skills occurs. The electrical impulse from a taser overrides the human bodies natural electrical circuits that allow the brain to send signals to the rest of the body. Now it would stand to reason on how a Taser works obviously does not leave bruises, nor does it break bones, or cause damage to internal organs. Now would'nt it be common sense that it is a great deal safer that an officer can gain compliance from a resisting suspect without even touching him and staying at a safe distance? That is what common sense tells me.

Do not only hear this from my point of view. Go take a look at Taser on the web. They have a huge amount of not only studies done, but Federal Case Law at your fingertips to access. I just believe in the old mantra that fear to something new is caused by lack of knowing and understanding. Especially when it has to do with the men and women of this nation that are working to keep neighborhoods and cities safe. Law enforcement officers are people as well with families, feelings, and dreams. Why should it be up to you to judge what they can and cannot do to first and foremost protect themselves, as well as protect you.

The whole point is that you talk with numbers and explain that officers are expendable. That is not what you clearly stated but it is just the same. They are human beings not lab rats, and for the idea of you to not feel safe because an officer has a Taser issued to them is utterly ridiculous. Maybe you truly need to "walk in an officer's shoes". I highly encourage you to do a ride along with an officer and see things for how they really are. I guarantee it will change your way of thinking. "

" JM: When you tell such a huge lie such a a cop is killed every minute, you make propaganda master Herman Goebbels proud. You are just shocked you got caught in a HUGE lie.

Why don't you explain the the REAL force force continuum: Cops Safety first and protect the public last? Bean Bag rounds - in McKinney? Hahahahahaha!

People get killed by these things and you give us beans.

You're a neophyte and a dilettante with no credibility - see what telling such big lies does? Everything you say is BS. "

" It is clear that there is no reasoning with someone with a closed mind. You continue to point out things that are insignificant such as the 56 second quote. I admitted I was wrong and you continue to exploit that why??

If you are such a professional on police use of force policies then why dont you enlighten us..... What is the REAL force continuum that you so notably spoke of above??

The 56 second quote out of the picture, please tell us what lies I have told??
(other than life based scenarios) while your at it why dont you educate yourself on the real meaning of scenario.

The way I see it sir is that you are the one with no credibility. You have continued to move around the point of these comment discussions which is the use of tasers, and how they are beneficial as a tool to officers to perform their jobs safer. So why dont you get down to the real truth and tell everyone why you have a sadistic agenda that is completely against giving officers other options to protect?? Also why dont you tell everyone here what negative encounter you had with law enforcement to give you this such agenda, as well as the low opinion on the men and women that protect you everyday.

I have explained myself enough over the last few days, now the ball is in your court. "

" JM: Setting aside all of your imaginary and baseless claims about what I think:

The point is you are a liar of "whopper" proportions, a point you belay unsuccessfully.

You put out THE most ridiculous lie about police deaths in an attempt to bolster yet more unneeded, costly and surely to be misused technology in the hands of police.

Next you'll be arguing for Apache helicopters for them under the same logic, or should I say made up lies.

As for the "high level math", it is sad that you consider 3rd grade multiplication and division to be so difficult. But then again, all you've written has at best the credibility of a third grader caught with his pants down.

BTW: Kudos to D. Gallagher for allowing the discussion on this topic. "

" Police officers use Taser on pallbearer


WILMINGTON, N.C.(AP)-- Five sheriff's deputies will be disciplined after they used a Taser while serving an arrest warrant on a man at his father's funeral, a North Carolina sheriff said Wednesday.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FUNERA...

Then there's the one about the kid who fell off a bridge and when he couldn't get up the cops tazed him 19 times. Or the wheelchair bound guy tazed. Etc. etc. etc. "

" Am really enjoying the debate on the tasers, from JM's reckless assertion that a law enforcement officer is killed every 56 seconds (that's 525,000+ cops whacked a year) to a pallbearer being tazed during a family funeral. The sad fact is that tasers, like handguns have a place within police departments. The question is, how will the officers be trained in their use? Will some officers be deemed unfit to utilize the taser, just as I believe some officers should be relieved of their handguns. There is no doubt that a majority of police officers are honest, well-trained, self-disciplined public servants and can be entrusted with the use of tasers, guns etc. But there are also a few 'cowboys' on every police force who will want to be the first to make headlines with their 'tasing' of somebody. These are the ones who need to be culled from the force, or at best, be given a piece of chalk and a book of parking tickets. "

" JM actually wrote: Do not only hear this from my point of view. Go take a look at Taser on the web.

Why should it be up to you to judge what they can and cannot do to first and foremost protect themselves, as well as protect you.

The whole point is that you talk with numbers and explain that officers are expendable. That is not what you clearly stated but it is just the same.

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Uh, let me splain something to you Lucy.

One, going to the manufacturer for the truth is an obvious wild goose chase. Taser has been and is being sued many, many times for damage and deaths caused by their non-lethal devices. Not to mention the plethora of law suits against PDs for misusing them. Look it up.

Two, why should it be up to citizens to judge? Did you really just ask that? See, in America, PUBLIC SERVANTS report to THE PEOPLE who btw, fund them. Where is the public cost benefit study showing the need to deploy these devices and bear the associated and ongoing costs?

Third, your last point is beyond ridiculous. You make a plainly idiotic statement, admit I said nothing of the kind, and then say I did because its the same thing. Rather dull-witted, no?

JM admit it, you are obviously a good way below average intelligence, so much so that you not only unthinkingly fall for things like 56 seconds and a manufacturers marketing material, but you also spout inanities such as the ones listed above. You are a fine example of a one who is more akin to a mindless sheep, than an intelligent, thinking person. "

" "Weve been pursuing ECDs, which is the industry standard name for these type of devices, for the last 24 months, Brewer said.

There was no single one incident or any single situation has occurred that prompted us to get Tasers.

Ok, Ok. I think some of you are missing the point. Listen to Lt. Scott Brewer's own words quoted above.

Isn't he pretty much admitting that they have no recorded need for these things and that they've been trying to get funding for them for years? Even though he can't justify either their need or their cost?

Pretty much the definition of an irresponsible boondoggle at taxpayers expense.

This is an out of control, ill managed department. "

" Here is your justification.... Evaluate these two incidents and place yourself in the officers' positions. What would be your course of action??

Last year at the Wal-Mart located off of Redbud in McKinney there was a disturbance of a man of average size, approximately 5'9 180lbs. He was trying to steal merchandise from Wal-Mart and caught in the act of doing so. The staff could tell that the man was very irritable, and something did not seem right. Wal-Mart staff called police and of course they responded. When police were assessing the situation, the shoplifter began fighting them. Backup was called, and it ended up taking 6 officers to take the shoplifter into custody.
Come to find out the shoplifter had used PCP only hours before the incident. In the struggle with police A 5'9 180LB MAN INJURED 4 OF THE 6 OFFICERS. The shoplifter had NO WEAPONS, had been sprayed multiple times, and had been on the receiving end of multiple strikes from a baton. Those 4 officers were not fit for duty for weeks from injuries sustained in the struggle. If MPD had tasers then, it would have ended that fight long before it started and those officers would have never been taken off of the street. You know what though? That was never told to the press and no one ever knew about it.

Just a few months ago there was an officer involved shooting where a MPD officer had to use deadly force. In doing so a man that was fighting police officers lost his life. He was intoxicated with a BAC of .23 and completely uncontrollable. Multiple attempts at trying to get the man to put a gun down and fighting with police ended in him losing his life. Officers involved were completely justified in resorting to deadly force, and exonerated of any wrong doing. However, if those MPD officers had a taser at their disposal that man would be standing trial for his transgressions but most importantly would be alive.

I ask again what would be your course of action?? What would you do if someone high on PCP entered your home and tried to hurt your family?? Even more so, what would you do if a man highly intoxicated on alcohol entered your home with a gun, and tried to hurt you and/or your family??? Im waiting....... "

" JM, I agree you really have no credibility.

For example you ask the question "Even more so, what would you do if a man highly intoxicated on alcohol entered your home with a gun, and tried to hurt you and/or your family??? Im waiting....... "

in relation to the MPD getting Taser for which even their spokesman can not come up with a rationale for them to have.

The question is answered simply so wait no more. I'd shoot the MF dead. Period. I wouldn't be waiting around for the police to show up with their tasers a half an hour later.

The point is NOT to protect police first or at all cost as you seem to think. (You are the wife or girlfriend of a cop aren't you?)It's the opposite - protect the people first, which is the oath they swore.

Under your "thinking" we should arm them with shoulder launched RPG's. That would give them an even greater margin of safety. "